Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Bailey (Irish politician)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 00:20, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

John Bailey (Irish politician)

John Bailey (Irish politician) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Non notable local Irish politician. Not elected to national office, no national profile, Fails WP:Politician. Note: I prodded this article some months back and it was deleted. The delete was contested and the article was restored. Snappy (talk) 11:59, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. —Snappy (talk) 12:01, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. —Snappy (talk) 12:03, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

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• Delete - local politician with no other claim to notability included in article. Warofdreams talk 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
• Keep - (I am the main author of this article) The subject of this article is a member of the fifth largest local authority in Ireland. Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council covers an urban population of 194,038 [1] and is a 1st level subnational administrative division as required by WP:POLITICIAN. The subject of this article has significant press coverage at national level. 50 references on the national broadcaster's website (RTÉ) [2], 77 references from The Irish Times [3], and 190 references from The Irish Independent [4]. MoyrossLADY (talk) 13:12, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

  Comment - The number of google hits doesn't confer notability. It's whether the individual has achieved any national prominence, none of the refs relate to anything other than purely local issues. Why is this individual any more notable the the rest of DLR County Council? Are they all deserving of articles too? Unless this individual achieves national prominence in some area, he is just yet another one of 1500 local councillors in the Republic of Ireland. WP:Politician also states : "Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability, although such people can still be notable if they meet the primary notability criterion of 'significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject of the article'". Being in the papers for some local issues in DLR does not meet this criteria. Snappy (talk) 13:42, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

  There are probably only two other members of Dun Laoghaire County Council with sufficient sources to warrant wikipedia entries. These are Niamh Bhreathnach and Richard Boyd Barrett. The others don't make enough national news. MoyrossLADY (talk) 15:54, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

  Also those ghits are inflated as several different John Baileys are mentioned. Snappy (talk) 13:46, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

• Delete Local councillors, as such, do not meet WP:POLITICIAN criteria. Emeraude (talk) 14:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
• Delete No visible indication of notability. National level politicians are (allegedly) notable, but not lower levels. Candidacy does not confer notability. (Success in a national election seems to.) Peridon (talk) 16:27, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Keep I've changed my mind on re-reading the article - as it stands now. There's been quite a few changes. I'm not sure that John Bailey would like the current article, but to me it now does indicate notability. That's life... Peridon (talk) 19:49, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

• Comment I've added about 40 references from national news sources to events in this guy's sports and political careers. There are hundreds more to choose from - not just random ghits but references in published verifiable reliable national sources. He has generated a huge amount of coverage over the past 10 years. Some of the comments above seem to indicate that being a local politician takes from a person's notability. WP:POLITICIAN states that being a member of the type of assembly that Bailey belongs to improves the case for notability. In many of the sources quoted in the article, you will notice that Bailey's name appears in the headline- he is not just a tangential reference in an article about something else. He is also referenced by several other Wikipedia articles. MoyrossLADY (talk) 03:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

They relate to either local issues or football, no national issues, and Wikipedia is not a source. Snappy (talk) 13:14, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

If John Bailey were the chairman of a Tiddlywinks club and a recluse he would still be notable because he has so many published verifiable independent reliable sources in national newspapers. But he wasn't a tiddlywinker recluse, he was chairman of the largest county board of a sports organisation with 800,000 members[5] for 10 years. Getting elected to the 5th largest local authority and generating even more articles in national newspapers just adds to the case. MoyrossLADY (talk) 15:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

• Keep. While no-one in their right mind wants to see individual articles for each and every county & city councillor from Ireland, I'm afraid that, according to wikipedia policy WP:POLITICIAN, the poster above is correct in saying that he meets notability criteria by belonging to the sub-national first tier of governance in Ireland. That is: "People who have held international, national or first-level sub-national political office, including members of a legislature and judges". In Ireland, city and county councils form the first level sub national tier in Ireland. Therefore members of the 29 city and county councils in Ireland do meet WP:POLITICIAN criteria and Bailey is a member of one of these councils (Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council). God help us. Bailey should probably met notability criteria anyway. His coveage in national print media is substantial. —Preceding Freekra (talk) 11:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

True, if we follow the strict letter of that guideline - but it is a guideline, not a policy, and above the text you quote, it states "A person is generally notable if they meet any of the following standards." It's useful to bring this up, but I would suggest that this example demonstrates that the guideline needs refinement, rather than that the longstanding consensus at AfD that people are not notable solely by reason of being members of a local council. Warofdreams talk 16:11, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

• Keep. There's no need to argue about whtether the subject passes WP:POLITICIAN, because it has been shown that he passes the general notability guideline, which is sufficient for keeping. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:04, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.